No more pompons for me, just the truth

Discussion related to the K-State men's basketball team
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No more pompons for me, just the truth

Post by pulitzerdave » April 16th, 2018, 10:06 am

This is a sports forum not a cheerleading camp. All views should be freely expressed here. Some opinions vary markedly with others, especially when it comes to evaluating players and their effectiveness on this Kansas State basketball team. Some of us don’t buy the arguments made with 40-minute analytics and using selective games to prove a player’s worth. That’s disingenuous and insulting.

Most posters on this site take a broader look at a season, a player and even a coach. It’s called objective reasoning. It’s healthy and stimulating to debate the issues pertaining to this team. It doesn’t mean that we are any less of a fan than a certain duo who I will call the Sunshine Boys, in fact, it’s a clear indication that we actually care about the improvement of the team. I know that sentiments play a part in how we all view players, but they really shouldn’t.

Players are given a fair chance to succeed and help the team, but if one doesn’t measure up to the standards set by the coaching staff, then someone else should be given the opportunity to step in. It’s not difficult from a fan’s perspective to discern who those players might be. It’s hashed out endlessly at times on this forum. The Sunshine Boys call such rhetoric “pitting one player against another”. I call it healthy competition. It’s also called team building. When a player is criticized or compared to another player, the Sunshine Boys cry foul, sharpen their elbows and assert a false narrative. The Sunshine Boys think it is their duty to be protectionists. To them, every player has potential to be good and every player is family. That’s not always the case. The truth is, no player is indispensable and none are above criticism or below praise.

Let’s transition to a current topic that the Sunshine Boys have managed to turn into a divisive debate and a dishonest discussion about “attacking” players.

The season is over, and as we bask in the sweet light of our Elite Eight run, we rightfully set our sights on next season. We met a crucial recruiting need, and a debate has sprung as to how to use this new asset. At the center of that debate have been Makol Mawien and newly acquired Austin Trice. Mawien’s play at the 5 position had been an area of concern the entire season. He was easily the weakest member of our starting five, and was the subject of much criticism on this forum. When it was suggested by me and others that Trice may eventually be a better fit to help shore up a team weakness, the Sunshine Boys came rushing to his aid. Using illogical 40-minute metrics (which were roundly criticized by most) and citing a few good games, the Sunshine Boys, with slight of hand, tried to make us believe that Mawien was a better player than what we all actually saw during the season. The fact is, there were too many very bad games that should also be factored into an evaluation of Mawien’s game. Was there enough there to make us believe that drastic improvement is on the horizon, especially with his rebounding?

The recruitment of Trice potentially addresses a crucial need that Mawien failed to provide. That’s not a slam on Mawien, it’s just the truth. Makol had 30-something games to prove he could be an effective rebounder from the 5 position, one of the main jobs of a center. He couldn’t do it consistently. No doubt Mawien will play a role on next season’s team, but none of us need the Sunshine Boys to tell us how good he’s going to be. We all saw for ourselves both his potential and his failings. And there was more of the latter than the former.

The Sunshine Boys would have us all believe that our opinions on this forum matter to players and coaches and that criticism spreads discord and dissension. That delusional position is laughable. I doubt that they read any of our opinions, and if they do, they know not to take it seriously. There are a few "fans" who take this FORUM too seriously, thinking it impacts the Kansas State basketball team. None of us are really that important or influential folks.

Finally I’m grateful for the new app on this forum called “Foes”, because I’ve now eliminated the two Sunshine Boys from my viewing of their posts. It’s a relief to know that I can now openly discuss issues about players with other valued posters without having pompons waved in my face.

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Pick 'Em

Post by tmcats » April 16th, 2018, 10:48 am

some of us have more time on our hands than others, it seems. :roll:

as for me, i prefer concise statements to ruffles and flourishes.
"There ain't anybody stoppin' our ass!" CK

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Post by wild@nite » April 16th, 2018, 11:04 am

My goodness, the irony. I don't get this board at all. Nobody can handle being disagreed with like an adult. Talk about taking yourselves too seriously.

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Post by KITNooga » April 16th, 2018, 11:14 am

following this logic, we'd have stopped trying with Dean Wade about a year and a half ago.

there's an ebb/flow and progression to these kids and their development. coaches too. whether we are talkin' Dana, Frank or Bruce.

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Post by Lowden23 » April 16th, 2018, 11:40 am

Dave, does this mean Makol is hopeless, because progression isn't a thing and players like Makol will never be a rebounder? DJ Johnson, Dean Wade, and thousands of other bigs I'm sure would disagree. Does this make me a sunshine boy? Obviously Makol has to put the work in to be a better rebounder but to say Trice can play the 5 as effective as Makol without ever playing D1 ball is just absurd. I'm just as thrilled as the next guy with the signing of Trice but maybe we should see what the guy does against D1 and especially B12 talent before we consider him our saving grace. IMO Makols value isn't necessarily how much he stuffs a stat sheet or lack thereof, it's about how well he can minimize or shut down an opposing big coupled with his ability to score from mid range and on the block. He's definitely not someone teams can turn a blind eye on.

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Post by Highway26north » April 16th, 2018, 12:07 pm

I don't get the point of the Mawien issue. Start of the year he'd get the ball in the low post, try to finger-roll it and half the time it got slapped away. As year went on he did a little more up and under and other options. Still way too reluctant to slam dunk but my take is that's a function of not being physically strong enough to be able to dunk through contact. On the outside a very promising shooter who at the end of the year had some eye-popping games. At the end of those games I'd look at the stats and he'd always done more than I remembered him doing. You can see watching the Final 4 that guys that size that can go out to the arc-there's no answer for it. Not that he should be hanging out out there, but if he has the capacity to do it it opens up a lot of other stuff.

So what can reasonably be expected after a summer of weight work and working on footwork and low post moves? Worst case he doesn't do that work; he's still a pretty good piece. If he does put in that work you (or at least I) can see him potentially being a real LOAD next year-a force underneath instead of a presence, and a guy who can drift out and take a big with him. In fact I'd say that is the main variable, along with Dean's health, in predicting how good next year's team can be.

I'm taking it on faith a little that he'll do that work. I can understand why Weber was insistent on his staying inside this year-if for no other reason it demonstrated to him what he needs to work on to be great. At this point it boils down to whether you look at him and see a glass half empty or a glass half full. Can we agree he's a heck of a good glass to have available?

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Post by xtrawildcat » April 16th, 2018, 12:39 pm

Everybody has seen mawien play and have been able to study his game including the numbers he put up the last part of the season some of us have pointed out areas of improvement. I don't see him or trice starting or getting more minutes being much to argue about. I'm extremely happy to have both of them and competition, foul trouble, injuries, matchups and who has the hot hand will determine minutes. And maybe Dean Wade will get fewer minutes during conference due to those two guys.

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Post by Puffdad » April 16th, 2018, 12:45 pm

Makol will definitely be an important part of the team and I haven’t seen anybody say he’s not. And yes some,including myself and many others, have predicted that Trice will probably get as many or more minutes than Mak. How anyone doesn’t think that should probably note that Mak averaged 17 minutes in conference play and 19 minutes in the Loyola game with NOBODY pushing him for minutes at all. Compare Makol and Austin’s stats. And guess what? They both played at junior colleges. And Wabash is a lot better juco team than any team from Utah. Mak could easily improve and get more minutes than he got this year and STILL not play as many minutes as Trice. We need both of them to be effective.

After talking to CW and CL about Trice at the banquet ..... they were both extremely excited about what Trice would add to the team. And so am I!!!

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Post by hilltopwildcat » April 16th, 2018, 2:02 pm

"The Sunshine Boys"

Was that a WW1 movie? Sorry. :wink:

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Post by hilltopwildcat » April 16th, 2018, 2:04 pm

"And maybe Dean Wade will get fewer minutes during conference due to those two guys."

You could hopefully be right...2 ways. Hopefully Dean stays healthier and the Trice/Mawien combo is effective. I'll have to see it first. I think Dean and Barry are above 34 mpg in conference games again.

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